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Global Gay Nation => Gay Identity - Queer as Volk? => Topic started by: berto on May 20, 2007, 01:43:07 PM
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Or is it racism? (http://www.startribune.com/484/story/1194416.html)
In New York, culture clash among gays: Some older gay residents in the West Village are not so comfortable with the influx of young gays and lesbians
They come to this Manhattan pier at night from Brooklyn, Staten Island, the Bronx, New Jersey. The black and Hispanic gays and lesbians say this is the only place where they can be themselves.
Here, boys in Timberland boots and fluorescent sweatshirts know they won't get beaten up for kissing each other, and girls with cornrows beneath backward baseball caps are not embarrassed to cuddle other girls.
"This was like the first place I could really be exposed to people of my kind, without having to worry about getting bashed," said Cliff Jones, 20, of Harlem.
Jay Jeffries, 65, is white and gay. He has lived for 40 years in the West Village, where he participated in the first gay rights marches. From his second-floor window he watches the roller-skating boys with boomboxes pressed to their ears and the fist-fighting girls wearing do-rags and jerseys.
He has never felt so out of place.
Residents such as Jeffries say they want the gays of the hip-hop generation to take their rowdiness elsewhere. They have demanded stricter curfews at the pier. They have lobbied to close a train stop on weekends to make it more difficult for gays from New Jersey to travel to the West Village, and to ban loitering in their neighborhood. They have suggested that park patrol officers -- who police the pier -- carry guns.
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Bob Kohler, 80, a gay rights advocate who has lived in the West Village for 60 years, said the discrimination young people face in the West Village is no different from decades ago when gays could not hold hands in public. He said his neighbors simply "don't want black faces on Christopher Street."
But Jeffries, a playwright, said the newcomers disrupt the area. He can't sleep at night because they yell and curse outside his window. Sometimes they jump high enough to peep inside his apartment. He says he has watched drug deals and prostitution solicitations from his futon. He doesn't dare use Christopher Street when it gets dark because he said boys grab him and shout, "Hey, papi!"
Before, "You could walk down the street and not get mugged, and not get harassed. I wouldn't dream of it now," he said. "They come from a whole different background."
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Yes, old people are very odd by times -- them being Gay or straight. But surelly there is also racism, and the dislike of poors which is widespread among wealthier people. Older white Gay racists should ask themselves, whom they have real reasons to be afraid of - the white straight fascists next door, or the black gay teenagers who smoke cannabis in front of their windows. Just guess, who is more likely to put a knife in your back or strike you with a metal stick upon your head?
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This particular topic is one that is so near and dear to my heart, that I really don't know where to start.
The piers are central to my identity as a gay man, as they are for many gay men of my generation and background. That's where we first felt liberated. Where I was propositioned by Grace Jones and her bi-sexual boyfriend at the age of 18. Where we kissed a boy for the first time. Where I sucked a dick for the first time. Where we learned about gay culture from the "gay mothers" and "gay fathers" who adopted us. Where I learned to vogue. Where we learned the local gay vernacular. Where we found ourselves and the courage to take our newfound identities anywhere that life took us, because if you couldn't hold your own on that slice of the Hudson waterfront, you just couldn't hold your own at all. Coming out on that "pier" was more than just coming out. It was coming out and living out. Once you set foot on the West Side Highway there was no going back. You tasted gayness in all it's richness and perversity and you either knew that you were finally found or that you were finally lost, but you KNEW!
I've been following this issue here for quite some time now. I'm a "graduate" of those piers. The original ones, way back in the early 80s, long before the neighborhood went co-op crazy and when the piers were real rotting wooden relics of a by-gone era.
Back then, the numbers of young gays of all colors was astounding. Today's scene, while still young, gay and predominantly non-white, is tame by comparison. Today's gay youth are not the product of the derelict 70s or the drug binging, self-obssessed 80s. They are way more sedate. Most are not not cast out by their families and homeless as was the case back then.
The current residents' complaints are really quite basic...back then most people rented their apartments in the Village and the majority of those people were gay men of every ethnic background. Most of those gay men succumbed in the AIDS decimation of the neighborhood in the 80s. Today, most people own their apartments and the increasing majority is made up of straight couples with young children. The yuppie influx of the 80s swamped Greenwhich Village. Gay men were dying and vacancies were soaring (something unheard of in Manhattan). These yuppies made a killing in a white-hot stock market throughout the 90s and now want a little slice of suburbia in Manhattan. They originally moved to "the Vill" because of its "bohemian" chic. That bohemian chic has now become too hard to bear on their newly acquired arriviste mentalities and their property values. They don't understand the haven that those "piers" have played in the lives of black and Latino gay men in New York for several generations. Young gays from neighborhoods where being out was not an option had no other option but to take the long subway ride to Christopher Street and walk the blocks down to the riverfront and breathe the rarified air that only comes when you know you're finally comfortable in your own skin, your own clothes, your own particular way of walking, your own particular way of talking...out, loud, proud and unabashedly gay. It was (and still remains for some) a costume change of the highest order. Once out of the subway, your voice raises a couple of octaves, your stride becomes less stiff, your hands less constrained...you begin to smile. The analogy between the inner darkness of the subway tunnel and the outside brightness of a Christopher Street afternoon is too real to be contrived.
Yet, I understand too well that in many respects we can point fingers at the Vill's new residents, but ultimately it is our community here in New York that bears the responsibility and the blame for the constant harrassment of gay youths in the birthplace of the gay liberation movement. We still do not know how to bridge the gap between being a proud gay adult and a questioning gay youth. Our people are the only people on the planet that do not have the luxury of passing on our values, history, traditions and culture directly to the next generation. The next generation must search for it, just like I searched for it.
And search for it I did. I had read in a library book about a magical place called Greenwich Village when I was still in junior high. I had no clue where it was but I got a sense from reading the book that it lay somewhere below 14th Street. I conned my cousin and his best friend to get on the subway and take a ride downtown with me (something forbidden for us at that age). We secretly went down there on a bright summer afternoon. They had no idea where I was trying to take them...only I knew I wanted to find Christopher Street. In truth I never did find it that afternoon. I walked all the way down 14th Street in the direction of the Hudson River and ended up in the Meat Market District. Back then this area was still the center of NY's meat distribution. It reaked of rotting blood and leftover bits of animal carcasses. At the very end of 14th Street I found something close to what I was seeking...an assorted gaggle of transgenders, drag queens and their johns and pimps plying their trade. We were cat-called, whistled at and reprimanded for being so young and hanging out in such a dangerous area. Amazingly, I still recall exactly what the area looked like back then, but I couldn't be able to even begin to tell you what it looks like now. So much has been ripped up and demolished.
I did eventually find Christopher Street with the help of two high school friends who came out of the closet the same day I did. And to celebrate, Jose (who lived blocks away from the Vill), got us drunk and high and we ended up stopping traffic to a dead halt as we sang "I Am What I Am" straight (or gay) down the middle of Christopher Street...the same route the Gay Pride March takes on its last leg.
When my gay mother, Willi Ninja, died of AIDS-related complications last year, I decided that I wanted that little intersection where Christopher Street meets the piers to be renamed in his honor. It's something I still need to do some work on and a whole lot of support for.
For many gays and lesbians, Greenwich Village is their "spiritual" home. For may Latino and black gays and lesbians in New York, the piers are our spiritual home.
Those piers may be nothing more than a brief break from the day to day pressures of work and child-rearing for some. But, to us, they represent not only our young adulthoods, but the place where we began to love our gay selves.
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And in response to your question...
It is racism, and much more. It's classist, racist, ethnocentric xenophobia. A large proportion of the Village's new residents were not born in New York and did not grow up here. Gay or straight, these people find it very hard to understand the native gay culture of this city that has traditionally been all-inclusive. No surprise that ever since the yuppie and guppy invasion of the 80s, it is easier to find straight white couples in a gay bar or nightclub in Chelsea than a gay Latino or black. The culture they've brought with them is one of segregation that was unheard of in the Greenwich Village of my youth. A walk down the streets of the Vill on a warm summer weekend will reveal that different groups socialize on different streets and in different establishments. The only ones that have no place are the young gay and lesbian Latinos/as and blacks. Nobody caters to them. It wasn't like that when I was coming up and that was one of the beauties of my hometown that has been destroyed. It is one of the reasons why I, a fixture in the downtown club scene in the 80s to early 90s, rarely venture out anymore.
If you had a chance to see the movie "Party Monster", you saw the attitude directly responsible for the demise of New York's traditional gay nightlife culture. Michael Alig's attitude as portrayed by Macauly Caulkin, was mild to say the least. He was racist to the core. He spearheaded the segregation of NYC gay nightlife into what is now the derigeur racial theme parties...i.e. "Latin Night" or "Black Night." Funny, there are no "White Nights" at gay clubs.
He and James St. James even went as far as to lay claim to the title of Manhattan's original club kids. Not true. Take this from one of NY's original club kids. We were at it long before Michael arrived here from Iowa or St. James ended up here from wherever the hell he's from. But we saw the change coming. The clubs started turning us away and catering to the newly arrived and moneyed whites who were quickly swamping our gay havens.
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Rain, I have never been to New York City (and rarely had the urge to go, either). But every time you write about some aspect of the city, it kindles an interest -- a fascination -- in me about the place. I suppose partly it’s the city, and the myriad aspects of its many neighbourhoods (not least of which is its importance to gay history and culture). But partly it’s your writing, too.
I remember when Ronald Reagan died, and folks at 365 were reminiscing (and “venting”). Some folks were saying he had got off too easily with Alzheimer’s, because in the end he wasn’t even aware of his own deterioration and ruin -- they wanted him to suffer, and be aware of it; other folks thought that attitude was brutal and barbaric (I didn’t.) You, however, wrote a fairly lengthy piece, remembering several friends who had died of AIDS, while Reagan couldn’t bring himself to even say the word “AIDS” in public, let alone allocate funds to address the crisis.
I wish I’d saved that piece. It moved me to tears... I will never forget you telling of the friend suffering from AIDS-related dementia who died alone in abandoned car, lost on streets that he had once known so well. It was a very evocative piece, and it encapsulated the rationale behind my loathing of Reagan far better than any of the (totally understandable) venom that was being voiced by folks like Byron. I wish I’d saved that piece.
You have also written about the history of New York as a centre of liberalism -- to the point where there was once talk of breaking away from the United States. I wish I’d saved that one, too. You’ve written funny bits about seeing delicious young hotties on the streets, informative pieces about the history of Ballroom and Vogue-ing, a lovely eulogy for Willi Ninja, about the perspective of a gay ‘person of colour’ growing up in ‘the hood’, about Pride parades, and the meaning of Stonewall... I find when reading what many of us from the old 365 board (and later HEZ and now here) have to say, well, we could be saying it from almost anywhere, (usually). But you are, undeniably and unmistakably -- and gloriously and proudly -- a New York City homo.
Thanks for entertaining me, for teaching me, for making me laugh and for making me cry. Thanks for helping start up HEZ so that some of us 365 folks had a place to ‘land’ after that forum got yanked out from under us, and thanks for coming over to this one. Outside of KT and Feral (who will *always* be my sweeties) you are one of my most favorite forum posters, and it is always a treat to see a lengthy dissertation from you when I log on. (I am still uncertain as to who is THE biggest repository of knowledge that I’ve ever met, you or Feral. :D )
Now, back to the city (in a way)... I just recently watched “Shortbus”. If you’ve seen it too, what did you think? Let us know here (http://gayrepublic.org/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=36).
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(I am still uncertain as to who is THE biggest repository of knowledge that I’ve ever met, you or Feral. :D )
That would be Rain. I'm just a sack of factoids that occasionally jostle together in interesting ways.
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Hmmm...That friend is a light in my life even in death, 'berto. His name is/was Edwin Nelson Rodriguez. Google him. He appeared in a film called "The Amazingly True Stories of Two Girls in Love" just before he died (among the myriad of things Nelson accomplished in his short life). If you ever do get a chance to make it this way make sure to visit the Lesbian & Gay Community Center on 13th Street in Manhattan. Inside you will find murals painted by Keith Haring...especially in the mens bathroom on the first floor (very sexually explicit...he couldn't have gotten away with it any place else). But you will also find a small room named in Nelson's honor.
As for the biggest repository of knowledge is...there's no contest. Personally I happen to look up to Feral. His insights are so sharp they can cut glass.
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Oh I recall writing that piece vividly. I cried while typed it out the entire time. It really was stream-of-consciousness catharsis writing. I don't know why, but the news of Reagan's death just felt like a relief after watching so many of my friends die.
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But you are, undeniably and unmistakably -- and gloriously and proudly -- a New York City homo.
I hope I don't come across as the typical New Yorker. I take pride in this city's traditions. But let me be clear...I take pride in the traditions that bring pride to all of New York's people, not just to some. In part it has to do with the fact that I have lived in quite a few places and always seem to find myself coming back home. There are precious few places where I have felt the annoying democracy of a place like New York City. That's what I love about this place. While the rest of the country talks democracy, we practice it every morning when we board a subway train and have to confront the daily assaults on our senses from the city's masses. It humbles and horrifies you. But it keeps you alert, alive and open to human potential.
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His insights are so sharp they can cut glass.
If that's so... watch out for the sharp edges. I am notorious for not cleaning up after myself :D
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Rain - thank you very much for the very interesting piece. :hug:
As you have written, largely the transfer of knowledge and culture between generation does not function well, if at all. The AIDS trauma seems nearly forgotten, and from what I understand, many of the youngsters are lacking any perception of what has happened to an entire generation just some 15-25 years ago.
Write, write, write! And gather your writings into a book, so there are no regrets later on omitting to download a precious piece.
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I hope I don't come across as the typical New Yorker.
I dunno from "typical New Yorker"... but you come across as a fine ambassador for your city, with a deep respect and pride in the town, without it being simply mindless boosterism.
Write, write, write! And gather your writings into a book, so there are no regrets later on omitting to download a precious piece.
I simply could *not* agree more.
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From this interesting piece on assimilation: (http://www.lipmagazine.org/articles/featmattilda_gaymarriage_p.html)
Gay bar owners routinely call for the arrest of homeless people, many of them queer youth, for getting in the way of happy hour. Zephyr Realty, a gay-owned real estate company, advises its clients on how best to evict long-term tenants, many of them seniors, people with HIV/AIDS and disabled people. Gay political consultants mastermind the election of anti-poor, pro-development candidates over and over and over.
In 1998, wealthy gay Castro residents (don’t forget lesbians and straight people!) fought against a queer youth shelter because they feared it would get in the way of “community property values.” They warned that a queer youth shelter would bring prostitution and drug-dealing to the neighborhood. For a moment, let’s leave aside the absurdity of a wealthy gay neighborhood, obviously already a prime destination for prostitutes of a certain gender and drug-dealing of only the best substances, worrying about the wrong kind of prostitutes (the ones in the street) and the wrong kind of drug dealers (the ones who don’t drive Mercedes) arriving in their whitewashed gayborhood.
Thjere is much more in the article.
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What is sad about the Castro (and similar gay neighborhoods across the country and around the world), and indicative of what gay people do with even a little bit of power, is that these same smiling gay men have failed to build community for queers (or anyone) outside their social groups.
In college I was taught that gay liberation and class struggle were bound together in the achievement of mutual goals. Gay liberation has never been the fight of gays with money. Gays with money can buy their liberation simply by purchasing acreage or a lofty enough apartment to insulate and isolate them from the maddening hordes. I assume that the folks that staged the Stonewall Riots were not very well off financially. And I suppose it wasn't until fairly recently that a class of gay bourgeoisie has had sufficient clout and numbers to oppress its own kind.
Money changes everything.
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Come to think of it...that article is worthy of an entire semester's analysis in a Queer Criticism class.
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Come to think of it...that article is worthy of an entire semester's analysis in a Queer Criticism class.
No kidding! That is one of the best anti-assimilationist, anti-marriage pieces I have yet read... and I agree with most of it, despite being in favour of equal marriage.
No, that's not really contradictory -- I think every queer should have the *right* to get married, if that's what they want. But as for myself, I can't see me taking that step, any more than I would join the armed forces -- although I also think every queer should have the right to do that too, if they so choose.
Thanks for the article, Victor -- I am going to post that elsewhere, and also forward it to several friends.
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Please read (http://gayrepublic.org/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=770) if you haven't already done so and take the appropriate action. There is trouble brewing in the Village. Some see signs of yet another LGBT riot. Informed sources are quietly telling me to "keep watching".
THE REBELLION IS NOT OVER (http://homepage.mac.com/rickke/iMovieTheater1.html)
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Rain --
I am working on putting together a "publicity pack" on this...
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Berto...the signs are very ominous. I've heard people say things like "I'd rather spill my blood fighting for my rights than being attacked for who or what I am." And this is coming from some very young people. Some are no older than I was when I first hit those piers. Obviously when you're that age, rage is a difficult thing to contain.
Rest assured...those piers and the right to be there are sacred to me. I will not stand by and let the parade march on. I intend to be there. I owe it to them. And to myself.
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Rain --
I have to run into town; when I log back on, it will be via high-speed, and I will have more to say then. But fer gawd sake, Rain, be careful! You don't need to get hurt again like you were at the RNC in NY... If you get your lovely self damaged again, I'll kill you! ;)
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I've spent the bulk of my Sunday morning organizing responses to this all over the world. Like I said in a previous post on this thread...this is my spiritual home. In a way, I am those girls.
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Berto you know I love a good fight. It's in my nature. The piers taught me to get my head broken and keep on fighting. Back then I fought for silly childhood reasons. My blood, and I dare say, my life is meaningless if I can't give it for the causes I believe in. And I believe in the sanctity and safety of gay people above all things. I would never think twice.
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Well, I've hit most gay LGBT organization links I have on almost every continent. The only exceptions are Australia and Asia...but I'm sure Berto, you can take care of spreading the word in those corners. The city's judge was very concerned about the effects on tourism...now the city will have more reasons to be concerned. I dare say that a full out boycott of gay tourism to NYC should be called for. This city only reacts when money's at stake. I believe the powers that be should realize that gays come here in huge numbers, maybe a hit in the tourist wallet will bring about some thoughtful resolution to what's been going on in the Village for far too long. I've already asked personal friends of mine in England, Spain and Latin-America to consider creating an anti-New York tourism boycott.
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I was sent this (http://www.edgenewyork.com/index.php?ci=120&ch=news&sc=local&sc2=news&sc3=&id=20082) from one friend today...I see echoes of my own post above on this thread in this article.
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"Attack of The Killer Lesbians" (http://www.nypost.com/seven/04122007/news/regionalnews/attack_of_the_killer_lesbians_regionalnews_laura_italiano.htm)...this just turned my stomach.
The three male "passersby" he's alluding to are gay males who jumped to defend their lesbian sisters and actually did the stabbing. They punctured his liver with a larger knife. Once the girls were out of danger, the gay men left the scene. I would have done the same or worse.
It's nice to have an identifying picture of this monster. He should watch his back.
And THIS (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime_file/2007/04/19/2007-04-19_lesbian_wolf_pack_guilty.html) from the Daily News..."lesbian wolf pack" they called them. As if there were such a thing! But this is an allusion to an incident in Central Park many years ago when a group of thugs assaulted a white female jogging alone at night in the park. The kids were either black or Latino and from Harlem. They were demonized in the media as a "wolf pack". Obviously they're playing the race card.
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"She's not a woman, she's a MAN!" (http://gothamist.com/2007/04/13/shes_not_a_woma.php)
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Rain -- check yer PMs...
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Okey Doke...
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Thanks for the article, Victor -- I am going to post that elsewhere, and also forward it to several friends.
You are welcome. :wink: The article is indeed very interesting, and there are many good shots in it. I enjoyed reading it very much, but while progressing through the text I got certain feeling of uneasiness. I confess that at the end, I disagree with this article's socialist tone and the final intention behind it.
The remarkable thing in this article is that while being superficially very harsh on "Gay assimilationsts," the author's mindstate in reality is not a Gay separatist' one. What he/she basically proposes is that Gays should stop fighting for their specific rights (like equal marriage etc) and instead shall turn towards the reforming of the "entire society" towards the bright socialist future. This article correctly points to several problems, but suggested solutions have more to do with class consciousness and the fight of have-nots against the establishment, than with Gay separatism.
In its way, the article is itself very assimilationist one - it strives to split the rich and influential Gays from the poor Gays, with the intention to unite disadvantaged Gays with disadvantaged straights in a fight for what the author perceives as a better world. Mind you, I do not object to those high goals in the least - I only wish to disclose the applied tactics of abusing the Gay issue for the socialist cause.
This article was written by a person who is very skilled in using language as a tool of manipulation. You can see how he/she segregates the "Gays" (= white, wealthy, male, old/middle-aged) from the "Queers" (= black, latino, female/transgender, young). This is made on purpose - to feed the outrage of the targeted potential clientel against those "wicked establishment Gays" and win supporters for the socialist cause. These vicious tactics are responsible for converting people like Jasmyne Cannick into fervent supporters of what they think is "the black cause" or "the worker cause" and put a blind eye to homophobia - indeed, those "vicious Gays" become their primary enemy.
Need I say that these people are not thinking of "homosexuals" in first line? Marriage equality and the "freedom to serve" does not fit in their agenda of combatting the imperialism and capitalism, thus they readily accept the destruction of lives of many, many Gay people who happen to be in a bi-national relationship or into some military profession. We can contest the institution of marriage and militarism as such, but it should be no question at all that Gays must have the same rights as heterosexuals. We can discuss on whether it makes sense for Gays to marry, but anybody voting in parliament against marriage equality is clearly an enemy of the Gay people. You will be not surprized that German leftists, including the former lesbian and now transgender heterosexual man Christina Schenk (http://www.christina-schenk.de/) did exactly this in German Bundestag back in 2001.
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Something missing from the analysis of what's happening in the Castro (and elsewhere) is the demographic shift that's actually causing it. Face it, there is a whole generation of people (a huge cohort) that is at its economic peak-- that is. the Baby Boomers.
It's no surprise. They've done the same thing before in other arenas: monopolizing pop culture, etc.
In college I was taught that gay liberation and class struggle were bound together in the achievement of mutual goals.
See, I find that to be an assimilationist attitude in itself. I am not a str8 fruit-picker or coal miner. I'm not a terribly beset Appalachian single mother.
My goals are, therefore, necessarily not coincident with those who are.
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See, I find that to be an assimilationist attitude in itself. I am not a str8 fruit-picker or coal miner. I'm not a terribly beset Appalachian single mother.
My goals are, therefore, necessarily not coincident with those who are.
It depends on your vantage point. From the vantage point of professors like Audre Lorde, Myrna Bain, and other black lesbians in New York teaching gay liberation classes to mostly inner-city LGBT students at the City University of New York, this is more than theory. It is a very valid point of view that is not limited by our environment, but painfully reenforced by it on a daily basis.
Is it a surprise to anyone that class/race/gender issues should manifest themselves wihtin the LGBT community? No, it is not. What is a surprise is that gay people wouldn't take time to thoughtfully analyze not only the issues, but their actions.
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The Importance of the West Village and those God-Damned Christopher Street Kids (http://www.bilerico.com/2008/07/the_importance_of_the_west_village_and_t.php#more)
I want to start this blog entry by prefacing that, yes, I realize the Christopher street kids are loud, that they loiter and yes, I feel for those residents plagued by the noise pollution, crowded and dirty sidewalks and youths running amok. I realize all of this and I sympathize with the problems and annoyances the residents of Christopher St. face regarding these children and their noise.
But I'd also like to say that I sympathize with the youth too. It's a fact- these mostly minority, almost all inner-city youths come to Christopher Street because for 40 years this street stands as the known place where one can be as openly gay as they are. Just take a look around. If you want to know where community pride is- look to these kids. Many of them unapologetically effeminate, the young fems hold the hands of their butchie partners and all of them are decked out in some form of rainbow attire. They're here, they're queer and they are on Christopher Street to be just that. There is no Christopher Street in Newark or The Bronx or Brooklyn or Queens- so is it any wonder these kids take hour-plus train rides, escaping their homelands to be here, on this small strip of a street?
Lots, lots more at the link...